Philosophy Discussions and Stuff

Discussion in 'Aqua Polis Square' started by Brijesha, Oct 9, 2014.

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  1. Brijesha

    Brijesha Teller of Seasons Senior Member

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    Like Extian's Science Facts and Stuff thread, I thought that the boards could use a place to discuss/dump the various forms of Philosophy found in our lives. So.. With that... Let's chat.

    Now, these threads die very quickly because, to be frank, they usually don't have a starting point. And let's be honest, you can't just have a "Philosophy" discussion, you are going to need some catalyst to leap off from before you start saying something profound.

    Now, to be clear, you don't need any formal education in Philosophy, although it would help, you just need a brain and a train of thought.

    So let's attempt to keep it simple for now, and we'll see how this pans out.



    Last edited: Oct 23, 2014
  2. Lunex

    Lunex Bloody Lunatic... Senior Member Indiegogo Backer

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    The text on those pictures is kinda hard to read.

    With that out of the way, I'd say it would probably be better to have a Philosophy discussion thread than Philosophy facts because facts about philosophy might be restricted considering philosophies aren't really subject to facts as much as perception.
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  3. Brijesha

    Brijesha Teller of Seasons Senior Member

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    9:37 AM
    BillyBebop writes:
    Last edited: Nov 3, 2014
  4. Lonedragonwolf

    Lonedragonwolf Active Member

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    7:37 PM
    I think that it's an awesome idea to have a thread about philosophy! It's such a fascinating topic.

    I'm not disagreeing with anything you said-I just disagree with the designer Carreras somewhat. I think it is a wonderful idea to visually explain these different trains of thought, and with most of them I feel the general idea comes across. I do disagree with the visual for atheism though-the upside down cross has had many different meanings throughout history, so using it could cause confusion in that sense. The upside down cross also makes it seem like another possible understanding of atheism would be that it is a philosophy that opposes Christianity, where technically atheism is actually-in a broad sense-as there are different forms of atheism-the lack of believe in a God or multiple gods.

    So yeah-the designer in me was just annoyed at the lack of thought towards context for that one. Otherwise for the most part the designer in me is satisfied-although I feel as though the Nihilism and Skepticism posters could have been more effectively designed...but all of that was me going on a tangent lol.

    So to try to get my post back on to the original train of thought of actually discussing philosophy I'll jump over to the post on what Vassili Bebop wrote. The topic of freedom and choice...there are so many different tangents that could be gone on with that one...lol. A few years ago in a philosophy class I took we read sections of Augustine's "On Free Choice of the Will" and discussed the differences between physical freedom and metaphysical freedom. With the question "is it possible that anxiety is the dizziness of choice, and that freedom implies something totally distinct from choice?" it depends on the philosophy and the philosopher or the person in general-with Augustine's train of thought freedom didn't imply something different because freedom existed because of the ability to choose.
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  5. TheEnigmaticLahran

    TheEnigmaticLahran Well-Known Member Senior Member

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    8:37 PM
    For now, I'll hold off on my general life philosophy and join in on the freedom of choice thing.
    I think that anxiety is caused by limited knowledge of the future, rather than the "dizziness of choice/freedom". However, I can concede that by giving people choices/freedom, their life's possibilities increase tenfold, which (I believe) would cause anxiety.
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  6. Kronos

    Kronos Member Backer

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    Or anxiety comes from not believing that all those possibilities for your individual future actually exist. If your poor you are anxious because you don't see a future for yourself where you have enough money to stay comfortable. If your in a place of perpetual famine and drought (like places in Africa), you don't see the possibility for food in your future.

    If your given more freedom of choice, in my mind, you have been given either a gift of money (because you literally have more choices that are mathematically available), are being released from a servitude (like being fired from a job, or freed as a slave, or broken from a certain ideology/religion/philos), or you are in your imagination, to some extent virtual worlds but then your choices are limited by the programming and graphical barriers that each possesses.
  7. Silaan

    Silaan Man Behind the Mask! Senior Member

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    2:37 AM
    I guess his train of thought was somewhat along the lines of "atheism is more or less the opposit of theism (wich is... not entirely right as a negation isn't necessarily an opposit, but that is playing semantics), the most recognized theistic symbol (at least in "the west") is the cross used in christianity, so lets just turn it upside down, should get the theory across."
    which is kinda wrong (for example in the broadest sense (and the only thing that can be said about ALL atheists): atheism isn't only the non-believe in the abrahamic god but any and all gods, thereby making the symbology far to narrow to be useful . . .) yet also somewhat easy to understand, if you aren't taking all the other interpretations of an inverted cross into account... like the one were the inverted cross represents Simon Peter/St. Peter as he, according to myth, was crucified upside down on his own wish, as he didn't see himself worthy to die the same way Jesus did, in wich the inverted cross would become a theistic symbol, ironically enough . . .
    ... I agree on the nihilism one though, especially the color choice could have been a little more thought out... though that is kinda nitpicking... same goes for the skepticism, personally find that color contrast to be blergh-inducing, though that falls into "personal opinion" XD


    on freedom: personal view on that is that "freedom" simply means one isn't obligued to anything, however, having complete freedom is, in my personal opinion, just as anxiety inducing as having no freedom whatsoever, so if we do not have enough freedom we will start to struggle to get it, and if we have to much, we will either wither or become decadent or start to give ourself boundaries so we can be happy within those... so, freedom of choice, to me, just means you have enough freedom to choose whatever bounderies you want to adhere to and/or what goals you have... To make this an analogy fittind with the fora: Ever played a game were your choices are so limited you rage-quit it just because it seems stupid to you? well, the opposit can be true, too: ever started a sanbox game and just stood there for minutes without any damn clue what to do? yeah, that.

    of course: never had any philosphy class of any form or something like that so, grain of salt included... as well as the disclaimer that this is all personal opinion... meh.
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  8. BillyBebop

    BillyBebop New Member

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    8:37 PM
    I definitely like where this is going, but I feel I should clarify my position...
    (Thank you, Brijesha for inviting me here.)

    I feel that more choice does not necessarily translate into more freedom. I accept as fact that to be (feel?) free we must have the ability to make decisions, but I contend that too many choices can lead to several things that I perceive as negative:

    Decisive paralysis is the name attributed to the difficulty of making decisions when you are presented with many options.

    Has this ever happened to you? A good example is the ice-cream parlour scenario.
    You are presented with three flavors of ice-cream: Chocolate, Vanilla and Strawberry.

    That should be easy. I personally like chocolate. Now imagine you are presented with 50 flavours of ice-cream.​

    Do you still want chocolate?
    If you do, will it be mint chocolate?
    Double chocolate fudge?
    Chocolate Swirl?
    Belgian Chocolate surprise?
    Peanut Butter and Chocolate?
    Mocha?
    White chocolate caramel ripple
    ?

    ...Not as easy anymore, right?

    So as choice increases, we can see that the difficulty of decision increases.
    In regard to this, I postulate that when we are confronted with complex decisions we are not as "free" to make an informed choice.

    Dissatisfaction of Choice is another thing I would like to mention, and it follows the first concept rather well.
    When we spend a considerable amount of time/effort in making a decision, we develop expectations of how good something should be. It becomes very easy then, for the choice we make to not meet our expectations.

    Another factor involved is that the more options we have to consider, the more likely we are to doubt the choice we have made. We tend to wonder if it could possibly have been better if we chose something else, instead. The more options, the more we can regret and reconsider.
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  9. BillyBebop

    BillyBebop New Member

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    8:37 PM
    I'd just like to ad, as a sort of disclaimer to what I've said
    just in case anyone is wondering
    that I do not feel comfortable with
    anyone controling the amount of decisions I have the opportunity to make,
    perhaps even myself.
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  10. TheEnigmaticLahran

    TheEnigmaticLahran Well-Known Member Senior Member

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    8:37 PM
    I agree in the sense that we may not feel as free if we are confronted with a complex decision that may not have many favorable outcomes (or outcomes that do not live up to our expectations), or an abundance of choices that makes us feel that we are missing out on every other option except the one we choose (in the case of the ice cream), but I think that if we ignore the part about how we feel about it, freedom is increased when there are more options available. While me having access to 300+ games on Steam makes me take much longer to choose a game to play, I feel that I technically have more freedom than someone who only has 3 games.
    So, in short, I believe that more choice does equal more freedom, but I concede that more freedom isn't always necessarily a good thing, even if we like the concept.
  11. BillyBebop

    BillyBebop New Member

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    8:37 PM
    I did not yet look at those philosophy graphics but I wholeheartedly agree with you that the cross is definitely the accepted western religious symbol and I also regard it as being too narrow to be significant. I will check the pictures out post haste.

    In relation to your idea of a "sandbox" game. I propose that if we ever created a game that was 100% immersive and completely free of any rules or limitations it would invariably result in people being physically immersed in virtual reality, they would increase their virtual (and thus, physical, due to neural/synaptic linkups) dopamine levels extremely high all the time and just exist in a dream world where they would basically just "fly" through a universe that exists exactly as the
    player (?) wishes it to at all times. It would be like spawning a new universe in which you are basically "gods". Gods with feelings and neurosis. I could see people getting 100% lost in the game and even creating mechanics to feed their bodies and remove their excrement so that they could exist in the game indefinitely.

    Just the concept scares the shit out of me, to be honest.
  12. BillyBebop

    BillyBebop New Member

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    8:37 PM
    I completely agree with you, down to your sentiments. The answer to the question I proposed seems to me to be yes more choice does mean more freedom, and they are locked in a proportional relationship. The down side appears to be that more choice and thus freedom is more of an intellectual and emotional burden.

    I have a little difficulty getting traction on these sort of ideas sometimes. Its just against everything that I ever thought to think that too much freedom could be harmful for a being who is emotionally and psychologically incapable of dealing with that much choice.

    Its almost like I have to convince myself that I need to accept it.

    Too much freedom can be a bad thing.
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2014
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  13. Kronos

    Kronos Member Backer

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    7:37 PM
    When you say 100% immersive and completely free of rules you create a paradox that would be hard to get around. What if the player wanted it to feel 0-99% immersive? What rules or regulations would the developer have to put in to keep it at 100% immersion and completely free to choose immersiveness? If you make an exception to the "free of rules part" what rules are in place to allow you to change immersion level, and, eventually log out? What rules are there to guide your desires into the living virtual reality that would be created?
  14. TheEnigmaticLahran

    TheEnigmaticLahran Well-Known Member Senior Member

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    8:37 PM
    I think it would be way different and foreign, but at the same time, I like to consciously give people in the future the right to live independent of the past and present's ideals, as many things will change. I'm personally of the opinion that since we have survival down (the previous point of life), the only other goal we could have would be to be happy and enjoy ourselves. And if we can enjoy ourselves by playing said game, I say go for it.
  15. Silaan

    Silaan Man Behind the Mask! Senior Member

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    2:37 AM
    why do you quote me but refer to it as Kronos' text? Anyways, the pictures are... OK, pretty minimalistic, if you like that you should like the pics, I guess.

    sounds like the most boring "game" ever to me, really... a "game" were you are basically omnipotent would be insanely boring for the simple reason that there would be no obstacles whatsoever to get over... accomplishment in a game comes from that very thing: getting obstacles out of the way, if you strip that away you strip away the very core of what makes games fun to begin with: that useless goal that needs to be reached and fills you with a sense of acomplishment... and a well made sandbox game KNOWS this giving you MANY things to find, reach or just plain anihilate.
  16. TheEnigmaticLahran

    TheEnigmaticLahran Well-Known Member Senior Member

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    8:37 PM
    I think the idea was that you would be releasing dopamine because of the game, which would inevitably make you feel like you're enjoying yourself. Although to attain stimulation, I imagine you could use your omnipotence to create challenges for yourself.
  17. Silaan

    Silaan Man Behind the Mask! Senior Member

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    2:37 AM
    wouldn't that be closer to "drug" then "game"?
  18. TheEnigmaticLahran

    TheEnigmaticLahran Well-Known Member Senior Member

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    8:37 PM
    Guess it would. The question is: "Would that be bad? If so, why?"
  19. Silaan

    Silaan Man Behind the Mask! Senior Member

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    2:37 AM
    I never implied it would be bad (plus: have fun defining "bad" in a way people agree on^^), I just like pointing things out... thought that would be clear by now . . . I just think it fails as a game-concept.
  20. TheEnigmaticLahran

    TheEnigmaticLahran Well-Known Member Senior Member

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    8:37 PM
    That makes sense. I had just got done reading a fairly hostile post on a different forum, and couldn't help but view your statement as challenging, rather than simply observatory.
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